Wednesday, March 22, 2006

Inerrancy? Pt. 3

In answer to a visitors question, ‘Could you give us an example of what you consider to be an error in the Bible?’.

Okey dokey.

(This list was compiled from scratch tonight, so it’s not meant to be complete of course)
  1. There are scientific errors.
    a) An example: Leviticus 11:6 and Deuteronomy 14:7 both describe the hare as a ruminant. However, as Law rightly states: ‘This is quite simply wrong and no exegetical ingenuity can make it right’
    b) Biblical cosmology asserts a flat earth, something Creationists will do their best to ignore. While your in Genesis, compare the creation accounts in Gen 1 and 2 and think about the order of creation, i.e. when humans came along in relation to the rest of creation.

  2. There are genealogical list errors.
    a) Even many conservative scholars would admit this even in relation to Matt 1:1-17. Btw, in 1:17, it states: ‘from Abraham to David fourteen generations, and from David to the Babylonian exile fourteen generations, and from the Babylonian exile to the Christ fourteen generations.’ Sit yourself down and actually count how many generations there are listed in the preceding verses and see if the editor/author was any good at maths.

  3. There are copyist errors. Hundreds of them. And the copyists and editors saw fit to change bits of the text here and their to suit their own agendas. To be contemporary in my comments: Ehrman has a good point, but it is a) not entirely original and b) no reason for turning from the faith – only one sickened by a false understanding of what the bible is. I will look at the old ‘escape clause’, that of the purity of ‘original manuscripts’, later.

  4. There are historical errors. Just a few random examples:
    a) How did Judas die? Compare, closely, the accounts in Matthew 27:3-8 and Acts 1:18-19. The differences are certainly not the result of a mere copyist error.
    b)
    Did Paul’s companions hear the voice during the Damascus road experience? Acts 9:7 ‘The men who were travelling with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one’. Acts 22:9 ‘Now those who were with me saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me’.
    c) What colour robe was Jesus forced to wear? Compare Matt 27:28-29 with John 19:2-3.
    d) How many Syrians did David slay? Compare 2 Sam 10:18 and 1 Chron 19:18.
    e) For more, do a bible study on these questions like: Who is the father of Joseph? Who was at the Empty Tomb? How many times did the ‘cock crow’ (Peter’s denial of Jesus)? Etc.

  5. There are factual errors
    a) One example: Matt 27:9-10 cites a passage that the author/editor claims to have come from Jeremiah. But where did it really come from? Zech 11:12-13.

  6. It’s writers often supported theological errors, and the biblical tradition later corrects and contradicts itself. It makes theological statements that are such that one or other is true, not both. Many tend to call this phenomenon a ‘tension’. But aren’t many simply contradictions, thus making the contrary theological assertion an error? This is the essence of ‘sublation’ I mentioned first here.
    a) The righteous will get along dandy thanks (Proverbs), or perhaps in real life things are not so simple (Ecclesiastes). Cf. Childs OT work on this.
    b) Will all be saved in the end?
    c) Will God punish the children for the father sin or not?
    d) Can God be seen? Yes or no?
    e) Does God change? Do a bible study.
    f) Matthew 5:19 ‘Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.’ But isn’t this exactly what the early church went on to do?
Now I am an evangelical Christian, but I simply refuse to accept the many silly ‘explanations’ for some of the sort of errors I’ve outlined above. To do so would be to ‘leave brain at door before you come in’. Such data as that contained in the points above is, I think, irrefutable reason for rejecting the inerrancy of the bible as defined in my first post in this series.

‘But, Chris’, some may respond, ‘these are hardly serious errors to significantly challenge our understanding of what is necessary for salvation’! I agree. But the doctrine of inerrancy is making a claim that the investigation of smaller details can either falsify or verify. In this case, inerrancy is soundly falsified.

To perhaps surprise some of you, I still want to say that the Bible is ‘the Word of God’, and inspired – with qualification. But how can such a claim be made if one accepts errors and contradictions in the bible? And what about the ‘escape clause’ that though there may be errors in our bible, the original manuscripts were free of them? To such questions I will turn to in the last couple of posts in this series. Plus I want to address some of the criticism my posts have received from other bloggers.

40 comments:

Ben Myers said...

Great post, Chris. I'm enjoying this whole series, and I'll look forward to the rest as well.

Chris Tilling said...

Thanks Ben.

And David, thanks for making my post look totally inadequate! My oh my!

One is tempted to say that except for the macro events that nearly every historical event narrated in Scripture is questionable or is so fitted to the author's purposes that we couldn't recognize the "true" historical event that underlies it (Wow! I can't believe I just said this last bit).

I think it depends on which part of the bible is being discussed. 2 Kings 25, for example, is less interpretation, and more reporting of hard historical events. Here we come close to raw history. However, something like Gen 1-2 (obviously there was no eye-witness to see the 'void') is the other extreme, in which interpretation takes lead role.

But it does seem you need a strong view of the Spirit in the selection, in the act of reading and in the acting them out. Yes, Amen! Which wise theologians said: ‘We can only know God, through God’?

... differences which are irreconciliable. Yes even the resurrection narratives....scary.
To be honest, I find this rather comforting! It shows that we are dealing with recognisable human accounts, and not some artificially constructed church propaganda alone - if you know what I mean!

Thanks so much for your great comments!

Exiled Preacher said...

Chris,

I think you may have "left your brain at the door" before you wrote this post. There are perfectly good explanations for almost all the Biblical "errors" you listed. I do not claim that all problems can be solved. But I am prepared to give the Biblical text the benefit of the doubt.

Time would fail me to deal with all the items on your list. Let me take a few examples:

1) The ruminant hare (Lev 11:6). According to modern-day scientific classifications, a hare is not a ruminant. But the ancient Hebrews were not post-Enlightenment scientists and did not purport to be. They classified animals on the basis of appearance, not anatomical structure. Hares chew their food slowly before swallowing just like a cow. That is why they were classified as rumanants. To say that this is an example of error is an anachronistic attempt to foist modern-day species classifications on the Bible.

2) Flat earth? Where?

3) Matthew's Genealogy. Can we start with the assumptions that, A) Matthew was not stupid. B) He knew that his readers (Jews probably in the first instance) would have read Genesis and 1 & 2 Chronicles.

Matthew was not trying to pull the genealogical wool over his reader's eyes. His genealogies are symbolic and representative, based on the numeric value of David's name (14). Matthew was not a family historian, obsessed with the details of Jesus' ancestry. His purpose was to demonstrate Jesus' messianic credentials as the Son of David. If Matthew's intention was to give an exhaustive list of Jesus' ancestors, he was either badly mistaken or trying to deceive us. Do we have to regard him as either incompetent or a liar?

4) Theological errors. Your supposed disagreement between Proverbs and Ecclesiastes is over simplistic. Proverbs speaks of the righteous being poor and oppressed too. Proverbs are proverbs. They state things that are true on the whole. Hard working, honest people usually prosper. Lazy lying slackers don't. But that is not always the case, hence the warnings against the nasty rich oppressing the humble poor.
No Theological error here, but a failure on your part to be sensitive to Proverbs as a literary genre.

Case study: Proverbs 26: 4 & 5. Stupid contradiction or an invitation to think about what kind of fool you are dealing with? (I am attempting to answer you!)

Does God change? No! Does he relent from threatened judgement when people repent? Yes!

If the Bible can be wrong on Theological matters, then how do we decide what to believe?

A commitment to inerrancy demands that we take the Bible on its own terms. This demands careful thought, historical sympathy and respect for the Biblical writers. That is quite impossible if we "leave our brains at the door". Inerrancy is not for air-heads.

I the last analysis, I do not believe in Biblical inerrancy because I think I have all the answers to Chris' questions. It is a matter of faith in the Bible's self-witness, prompted by the testimony of the Spirit to my heart. Is that so wrong for a Christian? Jesus said, "the Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:53). That's good enough for me.

"The first one to plead his cause seems right, Until his neighbor comes and examines him". (Proverbs 18:17)


Yours,

Guy

Simon Hardwick said...

Hi Guy,

It is a matter of faith in the Bible's self-witness,

Assuming the Bible is a consistent whole (very much like the Quranic revelation), rather than a collection of writings over an extended period with the Church herself selecting which texts are authoritive or not.

Scripture makes a claim to authority, however it is a philosophical and biblical leap too far to advocate inerrancy. The Bible does not make that claim of itself. Using the 2Tim 3.16 passage, scripture is only 'useful'!

The Bible is a tapestry, a patchwork, a glorious buffet of writings. It is not a systematic and consistent whole. As soon as we impose a systematic framework onto scripture, we then read it through lenses which are alien to the original authors intentions. This may well do violence to the texts.

Exiled Preacher said...

"Lost Message",

I agree that we should not impose our little systems on the Bible. We should avoid reading the Bible through the spectacles of the Enlightenment and expect it to conform to modern-day modes of classification etc. We should take the Bible on its own terms. That was my point.

We should not impose a postmodern literary perspective on the Bible either. Postmodernism is suspicious of unity and harmony in texts. When a deconstructionist system is imposed on the Bible this is what you get:

"The Bible is a tapestry, a patchwork, a glorious buffet of writings. It is not a systematic and consistent whole".

How can the Bible be "profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim 3:16) if its is hopelessly confused and inconsistent?

Scripture is inerrant and authoritative because it is God-breathed. God is not a muddled thinker. If you are suggesting this he is, you really have lost the message.

Yours,

Guy

Chris Petersen said...

The differance between the Gospel of John and the Synoptics concerning when Passover fell was what caused me to finally dismiss inerrancy.

The Gospel of John dates the Passover to the 15th of Nisan while the Synoptics (well, Matthew and Luke were following Mark) make the 14th of Nisan the day of Passover so that the Last Supper becomes a passover meal. I can see nothing but stark contradiction and have not been convinced by the many ridiculous attempts to harmonize these two different dates.

dan said...

I'm enjoying this series, Chris. Although I don't have too much to add except to say that Tom Wright addresses this issue in two chapter of his most recent book (Simply Christian). In those chapters he flushes out some of the ideas he begins to develop in The Last Word, and, as with anything he writes, those chapters are well worth reading.

Grace and peace.

[On another note, I'm having trouble posting here for some reason. If, all of a sudden, you get a string of 5 comments from me, please feel free to delete them.]

Admin said...

Along the same lines:

Two creation stories in the Bible. The first (Genesis 1:1-31) says that God created people last; the second (Genesis 2:4-25) contradicts it, saying that God created people first. Deuteronomy 14:7 says hares chew cud, which is incorrect. 1 Samuel 31:4 says Saul killed himself, while 2 Samuel 1:9-10 says that an Amalekite killed him.

Your conclusion also merits a standing ovation. Such statements as "inerrency" and many others, "free will" and "absolute truth" are not supported in the biblical text.

In Christ....for the long haul

Chris Tilling said...

Evening all,

Guy, you wrote: I think you may have "left your brain at the door" before you wrote this post.

Bit of a cheap shot that one! ;-)

There are perfectly good explanations for almost all the Biblical "errors" you listed.

Only if you are willing to sacrifice balanced judgement along the way. Actually, I’ll be more assertive: There are not ‘perfectly good explanations’. Lets look at a couple of your comments. And thanks, btw, for trying to deal with the points head on. I admire that.

1) It is not merely about scientific classification with the hare, but that the bible says something the rabbit does (i.e. ruminate) that it doesn’t. Therefore, and this is the simple reality, the bible is factually wrong. No dodging. No great escape blindingly creative exegetical mastery to rescue this. And if this were the only point I’d made, it would be enough to say the bible is not inerrant – even if all the rest was! But, of course, it is not the only point.
2) Flat earth? – follow the link.
3) I agree with your comments about the Matt genealogy, but you certainly don’t support inerrancy with them! The list is in error at one level. Undeniable. Did Matt have a theological agenda in making his changes? I think so. But did he bend the truth on the way? Yep. There for all to read.
4) Your supposed disagreement between Proverbs and Ecclesiastes is over simplistic. It is, which is why I referred readers to the Childs book – I didn’t have time to go into everything. And it is about the theological outlook on the world, not the odd verse here or there, in Prov and Ecc, and Job that is so different
5) If the Bible can be wrong on Theological matters, then how do we decide what to believe?
This is where a Christ-centred hermeneutic comes in. The church from its inception has needed prayerful, debate and sharpening to define its ethics and theology. And it is an ‘always happening’ adventure, which makes theology so exciting.
Inerrancy is not for air-heads.
But I get the feeling it is for people who have decided ‘inerrancy’ before honestly dealing with the texts first. Not only that, inerrancy is especially for those with endless creative ideas of how to reconcile and explain away this or that problem in the most plausible way. And sometimes the results look plain silly.

In the last analysis, I do not believe in Biblical inerrancy because I think I have all the answers to Chris' questions.

But that is the point. There aren’t answers to all these points.

It is a matter of faith in the Bible's self-witness, prompted by the testimony of the Spirit to my heart.

The same Spirit testifies the inspired nature of the text to my heart. But not its inerrancy.

Is that so wrong for a Christian?

I think it can be unhealthy, yes. Many raised on inerrancy start reading the bible, noticing errors and then loose their faith or find it damaged at least. And that is so sad, as it never needed to be that way.

Thanks for your comments again Guy – I appreciate them.

BTW, in your response to ‘lost message’. ‘hopelessly confused and inconsistent’ is not synonymous with ‘It is not a systematic and consistent whole’ in my books.

Thanks Kevin, I shall have a look later.

Hi Petros. Yes, that’s another point that could have been made. It was the ‘cock crowing Peter related’ episode that was important for me. If you try reconciling the accounts, you have to end up saying that none of them are true!

Dan, thanks for that. I’m looking forward to reading Wright’s new book. I finished his Last Word a while ago, and found it useful, but it wasn’t my favourite of his.

Hi Admin, welcome to my blog, and thanks for your friendly comments.

Ben Myers said...

G'day Guy. You asked: "If the Bible can be wrong on theological matters, then how do we decide what to believe?" I'd say the answer is: By trusting in Jesus Christ!

It seems to me that we shouldn't just talk formally about trusting in Scripture or grounding our faith in Scripture's reliability, since faith is never a formal matter of "what to believe." Rather faith is concerned always with its living object, Jesus Christ.

That's how I see it, anyway. And that's why I would never feel the need to "solve" the kinds of problems Chris is outlining here. Regardless of all such problems in the biblical texts, faith remains the same: it is a personal Yes to Jesus Christ, and not a formal Yes to the biblical texts qua texts. For me at least, the latter would really involve "leaving my brains at the door"! ;-)

C. Stirling Bartholomew said...

David Wilkerson* seems to think that the canonical gospels should be studied in parallel. I couldn't disagree more. That is absolutely the wrong way to study a literary work of any kind. The so called synoptic problem is a red herring. Get caught up in it and you will never ever get on with the business of reading a gospel.

csb

*not the "Cross & Switchblade" guy who led me down a blind ally many years ago.

Exiled Preacher said...

Chris,

Yes, I made a cheap shot in my "brains at the door" jibe. Fair cop. But why use an expensive shot when a cheap one will do? That would be decadence.

I stand by what I wrote in my first post. You must have a very skewed notion of what constitutes and error to persist in accusing Matthew of making one in his genealogy. If his intention was to select and use 3 groups of 14 ancestors of Jesus and his readers were (and are) aware of that what's the problem?

Inerrancy fosters an attitude of trust in the Scriptures. Non-inerrancy fosters an attitude of suspicion. If you can't immediately reconcile two passages of Scripture, to throw your hands in the air and say, "Error!" "Contradiction!" is the easy way out.

May I quote John Piper (in Brothers, we are not professionals, p. 77)

"There are hundreds...of apparent disparities in the Holy Scripture, and we dishonour the text not to see them and think them through to the root of unity. God is not a God of confusion. His tongue is not forked. There are profound and wonderful resolutions to all problems - whether we see them in this life or not."

Shw mae (traditional Welsh greeting), Ben

Yes, we need to trust in Jesus Christ as you said. But how can I know Christ apart from the Bible? If the Bible is as full of errors as Chris suggest, how do I know that the Bible's portrait of Christ is not mistaken?

When a person savingly trusts in Jesus Christ, they are trusting in the One revealed as the divine Word made flesh, crucified for our sins raised from the dead and exalted to glory. Where did those truths come from I wonder? The inscripturated Word enables us to know the Incarnated Word. The Spirit works in by and with the Bible to bring us into a personal, saving and experiential relationship with the risen Christ.

God's Word, the Bible is worthy of our trust:

So shall I have an answer for him who reproaches me, for I trust in Your word. (Psalm 119:42)

Paul wrote,

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13)

The Ephesians trusted in Him [Christ] after they heard the word of truth. The apostolic word that brought people to trust in Christ is now written down in the New Testament. Paul believed that the Ephesians heard Christ (4:21) as the word of God was proclaimed. The same is true today when people read their Bibles and listen to the preaching of the gospel.

We can only trust in Jesus Christ when we believe what the Bible says about him.

By the way, see my blog for a post on the "Liberal Evangelicals" of the 1930's. They held a very similar attitude to the Bible to Chris & Ben, with disastrous consequences.

Yours,

Guy

Ben Myers said...

G'day again Guy. "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation" (Ephesians 1:13). Somehow I don't think the writer to the Ephesians is talking here about "believing what the Bible says about Christ"! Presumably the New Testament itself arose out of the proclamation of the gospel of Christ -- not vice versa!

And, just to sneak another one in, is it also an "error" when the writer to the Ephesians pretends to be Paul? Or was this an inerrant imitation of Paul? ;-)

Exiled Preacher said...

Shw mae Ben,

You wrote re my comments on Ephesians 1:13

"Somehow I don't think the writer to the Ephesians is talking here about "believing what the Bible says about Christ"!"

That's not what I said. I argued that the apostolic word that the Ephesians heard is now (how I wish I could italicise my comments) written down in the NT. The NT is the means by which we hear the apostolic proclamation of the gospel today.

But in another sense, Paul's regular evangelistic method was to bring people to believe what the Bible (OT in his terms) says about Christ.

See Acts 13:13ff 17:1-4 and in case you think that Luke just made that up, see also 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, where Paul repeatedly says that the gospel he preached was that Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead "according to the Scriptures".

You also wrote,

"And, just to sneak another one in, is it also an "error" when the writer to the Ephesians pretends to be Paul? Or was this an inerrant imitation of Paul? ;-)"

Now you are just being a naughty Barthian. Sneaky indeed! :-(

Yours,

Guy

Jason Goroncy said...

Good stuff Chris. Perhaps a short piece on what you do want to say about the Bible's authority might be a good thing to post to. Just a thought. By the way, do you know which part of the world these responses are coming from?

Christopher said...

Guy,
i was posting this yesterday, but had a problem with my internet connection. So, here's a shorter version:
Everybody interprets and everyone is biased. Period. We are subjective creatures and can't get beyond that. Furthermore, when speaking of "historical truth," i agree with Kierkegaard in that (1) the best we can get is an approximation and (2) an approximation is not good enough for one to base one's eternal happiness on.

Exiled Preacher said...

Hi Christopher,

You wrote,

"I was posting this yesterday, but had a problem with my internet connection. So, here's a shorter version:
Everybody interprets and everyone is biased. Period. We are subjective creatures and can't get beyond that."

Yes, I'm so glad that you found my arguments convincing. At last, someone agrees with me! Kierkegaard didn't really know what he was on about did he?

That is what you meant to say isn't it? Words are so slippery that its hard to tell.

Oh the irony of it all.

Guy Davies :-)

Exiled Preacher said...

Hi Chris,

My "slippery words" comment was another economical shot. My point was that I understood perfectly what Christopher was saying. His words had a clear meaning.

With all the appropriate caveats about human subjectivity, I think that it is also possible, with careful thought and the help of the Spirit, to understand the Bible accurately, if not exhaustively (see my blog post on John Owen & Scripture.

Christopher also said,

"an approximation is not good enough for one to base one's eternal happiness on".

Too true. An errant view Bible undermines the full assurance of faith.

Yours,

Guy

Chris Tilling said...

Hi Guy,
You must have a very skewed notion of what constitutes and error to persist in accusing Matthew of making one in his genealogy

Not at all. If this text is inerrant, without error as defined in my first post, then Matt should make his theological without making an error of his sums. But he did.

"Error!" "Contradiction!" is the easy way out.

It can be, I agree. But trying to ‘explain away’ can sometimes be such hard work because it is merely playing with words to make it look like there is no error when there is one. It’s like putting makeup over a spot, and sometimes, though not always, the explanations appear to me to be so silly that they insult me. But why try to harmonise everything. Why is it that God didn’t give us a perfect record of Jesus life, free from interpretation, all of his words and actions, with a few ‘thus says the Lord’ along the way to clear up any differences? Instead, we have 4 different interpretations of Jesus, and to harmonise them is to miss the point.

If the Bible is as full of errors as Chris suggest, how do I know that the Bible's portrait of Christ is not mistaken?

It has errors, yes. It isn’t, it appears, inerrant. But it is inspired and trustworthy – but more on that in a later post.

They held a very similar attitude to the Bible to Chris & Ben, with disastrous consequences.

I think you’re being a bit unfair here! I will look at some of the consequences of inerrancy later.

But in another sense, Paul's regular evangelistic method was to bring people to believe what the Bible (OT in his terms) says about Christ.

And notice how he errantly did that in 1 Cor 10! Cf. 10:8, and the 23,000 – and then read the poor attempts of those seeking to explain the error away!

raised from the dead "according to the Scriptures

Try finding a proof text for that, though – it shows how differently they handled the scriptures.

Hi Jason, Yes, I plan to say more constructive things soon. But there needed to be a moment of destruction in order to justify movement.

Hi David, and thanks again for another great comment. I liked your closing words very much: “I'll be honest, I do not have answers here, but I am ready to be honest nonetheless.” I think that is part of strong faith.

Hi Guy, again!

That is what you meant to say isn't it? Words are so slippery that its hard to tell.

To say, as Chris did, ‘Everybody interprets and everyone is biased. Period. We are subjective creatures and can't get beyond that’ is not to say all interpretations are equally valid, or that things cannot be known. But it is a simple truth that we are subjective, and socially bound. At least that’s how I subjectively see it! Thanks for your comments again.

Christopher said...

Guy,
As Chris pointed out, what i said was not an invitation to relativism or subjectivism. It is only a denial of the possibility of "absolute universalism." The best we can know about anything isn't good enough for one's eternal happiness.

Chirs,
Maybe i should use a different so that we don't get confused!

Exiled Preacher said...

Christopher,

"The best we can know about anything isn't good enough for one's eternal happiness".

Your point has more to do with epistemology than inerrancy. You seem to be saying that certainty about eternal happiness is totally impossible. Are you sure about that? The New Testament is full of bold hope.

When Jesus told the dying thief, "today you shall be with me in paradise". I think that was good enough for him. The Bible speaks of a full assurance of faith (Hebrews 10:22). This is based on the work of Christ revealed in the word of God and the testimony of the Spirit.

How can you be so certain that your epistemology of doubt and uncertainty is right?

Yours,

Guy

Chris Tilling said...

Thanks for tehse thoughtful comments Guy,

and Chris. How about we call you "Chris (but less attractive and intelligent)"
;-)

Chris (but less attractive and intelligent) said...

Guy,
Actually i am speaking of both. To claim inerrancy requires some kind of epistemological backing. Otherwise, it's just pure relativism, which is something i am wanting to avoid.
i believe the bible to be true because of my faith and not because of some historical proof. With faith, certainty becomes the antithesis. Kierkegaard relates a story in his Postscript about two lovers.
One of the lovers starts to cheat on the other and demands certainty to feel better and confident about the fading love. In some ways, that is how i see the "Inerrancy" group. They are demanding certainty for something that is subjective. Chances are, that subjectivity has been lost.

Exiled Preacher said...

Chris (the less...)

For me, biblical inerrancy is above all a matter of faith. I believe the Bible's self-testimony and submit to the witness of the Spirit.

I am not unduly troubled by my inability to explain away all the supposed problems. By faith, I accept the Bible as true.

My approach to inerrancy is not evidentialist. That God has spoken truly an accurately in the Bible is a fundamental presupposition of my faith. I do not have to understand and explain away all the complex problems on order to believe. I believe in order to understand.

Yours,

Guy

T.B. Vick said...

See Chris, you have to post all the controversial stuff to pile up on the comments - you're setting records with this one! Mine is number 30!

Chris Tilling said...

Woo hoo!
31!

Jim said...

Nice! Reminds me of something I read in William Willmon’s excellent book (my all time favorite read from seminary) "Pastor" -“the Bible presents a whole range of stories, often providing a variey of commentaries on those stories, sometimes reading them in quite different ways within the bible itself.”

Chris Tilling said...

Yes, indeed! Sounds like a good book, but I must admit, I've not heard of it before - and your favourite at seminary, eh?! I checked Tü library, but it doesn't have a copy :-(

jim said...

Chris -
Maybe it would help if I spelled the author's name correctly? It's "Willimon." He was the longtime Dean of the Chapel at Duke Divinty School; now turned United Methodist Bishop.

There were of course other books I also enjoyed at Seminary, but this one did the best job of laying out a compelling vision for ministry.

David Wilkerson said...

Lawyerchik,

Your post reminds me of a Stanley Hauerwas quote to the effect of "The reason I'm not a fundamentalist is that you have to be too damn smart."

lawyerchik said...

Um...thanks? (I think?) ;)

Chris Tilling said...

Jim, thanks! I found it now

Chris Tilling said...

Lawyerchik, thanks for your long and thoughtful post! Great name!

I think, however, you have misunderstood what I have tried to say with some of these points. I won't go through each point is that would take too long, I'll just choose a couple of examples. For example, the very first thing you mention, the hare chewing its cud. The problem is that the bible says the hare chews its cud. But it doesn't.

Regarding the flat earth. The verses you used to justify a round earth in fact misunderstand the texts - it is about the shape of the dome above the earth. Check out the link I gave.

Genealogy: Genealogical list errors exist only if you start from a flawed understanding of science, creation and the earth’s age and critique the Bible from that flawed understanding.

Once again, you missed my point. I was simply concerned with the actual number of generations listed by Matthew, and how many he counted. It means no assumption regarding the earth's age etc., anybody can count and see the problems with a Bible in hand and nothing else.

Judas, and I'll make this my last point because it is already getting too late here! Read the two accounts closely, especially how the money was used, who was using it. The reconciliation attempts you mentioned I know of, seen them on the web before. But they don’t work.

All the best to you, and your comments are most welcome here,
Chris

Anonymous said...

Lawyerchick and exiled preacher's comments have encouraged me. This discussion has solidified my belief in Biblical innerancy. Sorry Chris Tilling I listened with an open mind and you have been found wanting. I just don't see what you are saying. I see too many predispostions against innerancy and I don't feel like you are giving it a chance even though you say you do. dh

Chris Tilling said...

Hi DH, Thanks for keeping an open mind. What in particular convinced you for inerrancy? And why do you think I haven't given inerrancy a chance?
Blessings,
Chris

Alex said...

Chris,

I found your blog recently, enjoy reading it, and have added a link from my blog. At one point in part 3 of your series you say, "Does God change? Do a Bible study." Over on my blog and in my own personal study I plan on looking into the relationship between prayer and sovereignty very soon and this issue you mentioned has come up in my mind while thinking about prayer.

Could you perhaps give me an idea of what you are referring to here when you say do a Bible study? I'm really interested in perspectives from you or others on what you've found in relation to God changing (changing his mind in particular) if that's what you're referring to.

Thanks!

Chris Tilling said...

Could you perhaps give me an idea of what you are referring to here when you say do a Bible study? I'm really interested in perspectives from you or others on what you've found in relation to God changing (changing his mind in particular) if that's what you're referring to.

Thanks!

Hi Alex, welcome to my blog.
To be honest, I'm so tired tonight, I haven't the energy to write a proper answer. Perhaps if I refer to some secondary works instead. Compare, for example, the reformed 'period of orthodoxy' works on teh nature of God and the scriptures they use. Then read a work like Küng's The Incarnation of God, and see what sort of Scriptures he uses and why.

The point I had in the back of my mind is that the bible can be read, at face value, to affirm an immutablitiy of God. However, this is not a catgory that can remain logically unchallenged within the Sciptures. Do we call this tension, or contradiction, or both? However, I'm waffling now cos I'm tired, so I'll shut up now. Read those books I mentioned and ignore me!
ALl the best,
Chris

byron smith said...

Hey Chris, just wanted to say that I appreciate the generous and humourous way you handle the flood of comments. Even if I wasn't also appreciating the content, it would have been worth reading these comments just to observe your manner. Keep it up.

(PS this comment is on inerrancy, pt3 - I know how annoying it can be to try to find random comments on long-gone threads)

Chris Tilling said...

Byron, thanks for that kind comment - really blessed me!

Mike Aubrey said...

Chris, I don't really think that the whole science bit is necessary at all.

If you're essentially responding to the Chicago Statement, then you have to at least acknowledge that those who believer in inerrancy, hold that scripture is true in all that it affirms. If this is the case, then science has nothing to do with scripture. Scripture cannot affirm science because science did not exist.

Just a thought.

Mike

PS - By the way, I think you're completely right about Christology in 2 Cor 3:16-18.